[ISHMap-List] Distinguishing between loose leaf maps from 1513 and 1520 Ptolemy

[Joel Kovarsky]

For those who do not have immediate access to Woodward's work, this 
(relatively) short essay, "Dillying and Dallying with Watermarks," also 
gets to the varied problems with watermark analysis: 
http://ihl.enssib.fr/en/paper-and-watermarks-as-bibliographical-evidence/dillying-and-dallying-with-watermarks 
. A short remark from that piece:

" Nothing like watermarks exposes the fragilities of observation. It is 
not gracious to say so (/so I'll say it/), but few, if any, scholars, 
even experienced bibliographers, can be trusted to observe paper in 
general and watermarks in particular with any degree of reliability or 
accuracy."

Joel Kovarsky

On 6/29/14, 4:34 PM, C Delano-Smith wrote:
> I'm entering this exchange rather late, so my comment may be repeating 
> what has been said or is in some other way gratuitous. If so my 
> apologies. But have you looked at David Woodward's comments (and 
> warnings) on watermarks in his Panizzi Lecture of 1995?  Published as  
> *Maps as Prints in the Italian Renaissance. Makers, Distributors & 
> Consumers* (British Library, 1996), 61-64. Short but pertinent and pithy.
>
> Catherine Delano-Smith
>
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Joel Kovarsky
> Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2014 9:07 PM
> To: ishm at lazarus.elte.hu
> Subject: Re: [ISHMap-List] Distinguishing between loose leaf maps from 
> 1513 and 1520 Ptolemy
>
> Although not singularly applicable to your Holy Land Map, it sounds like
> there can be watermark variation even within a single atlas issue:
> http://cool.conservation-us.org/coolaic/sg/bpg/annual/v30/bp30-01.pdf .
> Perhaps Chet van Duzer has some knowledge of this situation, given his
> remarks. The link I cite calls into question the presumption concerning
> utilization of a single source of paper.
>
>            Joel Kovarsky
>
> On 6/29/14, 2:10 PM, Ron Hekier wrote:
>> Many thanks to those that approached me off the list.   I provide
>> their responses below for the benefit of the group and future visitors
>> to the mailing list.
>>
>> In my opinion the investigation of watermarks holds great promise for
>> identifying maps from early atlases, presuming that the early atlases
>> were printed in relatively low numbers and utilized only one source of
>> paper.
>>
>> My copy of the Holy Land map reportedly from the 1513 atlas and not
>> the 1520 atlas has a watermark that appears similar to a fleur-de-lis.
>>
>> An image of the watermark on my map can be found at
>> http://i.imgur.com/KySYgPN.jpg
>>
>> On a related note, there are two other Ptolemy atlases for which loose
>> leaf maps are difficult to distinguish.  Those of the 1482 and the
>> 1486 atlases.
>>
>> On my Holy Land map purportedly from 1486, I find a watermark that
>> appears to be a daisy.
>>
>>
>> Below I append the helpful comments I received via email.
>>
>>
>> Is the paper watermarked - that may give you a decision one way or 
>> the other
>>
>>
>> Tom O'Loughlin
>>
>>
>> --------------------
>>
>>
>> With regard to your posting on ISHM regarding the 1513 and 1520
>>
>> Ptolemys, may I ask whether your map is hand-colored? If so, I may be
>>
>> able to shed some light on it, as I am engaged in a study of the
>>
>> coloring in hand-colored copies of the 1513 Ptolemy.
>>
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>>
>> Chet Van Duzer
>>
>>
>> --------------------
>>
>>
>> Dear Ron Hekier,
>>
>>
>> In Nordenskiöld´s collection there are only two maps of that edition
>> in Doria database.
>>
>> We have the edition in the National Library of Finland.
>>
>>
>> Here is the link of two leafs.
>>
>> https://oa.doria.fi/handle/10024/84457
>>
>>
>> Sincerely
>>
>> Anna-Maija Pietilä-Ventelä
>>
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>
>


-- 
Joel Kovarsky
The Prime Meridian
1839 Clay Drive
Crozet, VA 22932 USA
http://www.theprimemeridian.com
Phone: 434-823-5696

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